tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3403328333335592440.post8736461854178848738..comments2023-10-08T11:15:17.083+03:00Comments on Open Minded Torah: Internet Filters - To Be or Not to Be?Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08814307794629407094noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3403328333335592440.post-13297783055083154332009-07-13T14:55:13.536+03:002009-07-13T14:55:13.536+03:00I agree that giving filtered access to the Interne...I agree that giving filtered access to the Internet is the right approach.<br /><br />As everyone has pointed out, there are almost always ways to bypass the filters, or for that matter if you banned the Internet altogether there are plenty of other ways to access it, however granting access with an (even imperfect) filter sends a message that there is plenty of useful information out there, but be aware that there is stuff out there which should not be accessed.<br /><br />My kids are still younger (oldest is approaching Bar Mitzva), but we give him access to the Internet - in the family room (not his own bedroom), and we use Internet Rimon which has one of the best filters available (although I'm sure that someone has found a way to bypass it, I don't believe there is such a thing as a fool-proof filter)Michael Sedleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02684514303911193073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3403328333335592440.post-43353424885718009742009-07-13T11:51:50.353+03:002009-07-13T11:51:50.353+03:00Not sure if it's the mystique of the forbidden...Not sure if it's the mystique of the forbidden - that is, is there really a parallel between porn and rotten fruits (perhaps for some). I also think what comes out of this discussion is that every child is different, and every sensibility differently, and has to be addressed accordingly. I realized after reading AD's post that my son would very much benefit from - need - that expression of trust and confidence.<br /><br />Re: the pleasures of repetition, I meant Freud's repetition compulsion - and what from the outside might look to be without pleasure (or even painful!) - may for a certain sensibility or personality be a form of pleasure. See Freud's Remembering and Repeating. To me, his most important essay (not that I'm an expert).<br /><br />To make sociological generalizations again - which I warn against, but also enjoy - I think the MO generalize from a healthy sensibility of presumed rationality (which may not, in the end be as rational in every case as presumed). While Charedim, swinging in the other direction, generalize from a perspective of presumed desire (sometimes not as perverse as presumed), and thus skepticism about claims for intrinsic rationality.<br /><br />It's worth noting that Milton who I brought as a kind of proof text for the modern orthodox perspective (students of Rav Aharon Licthenstein will be happy) seems to very strongly qualify that perspective in Paradise Lost. Eve articulates the perspective of Areopagitica - 'reason is but choosing' - while Adam says, 'great that you have independence, but if you're going to hang out in the garden, you may need a filter.'<br /><br />She rebuffs his advice - and look what happened!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08814307794629407094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3403328333335592440.post-47797160863461823692009-07-13T10:41:42.534+03:002009-07-13T10:41:42.534+03:00I should add that Ilana's method does have man...I should add that Ilana's method does have many unaddressed advantages (seeing how much sleep they get, etc..)<br />I was addressing the point only as related to the topic (older child with his own laptop) and i just realized i might have been unintentionally dismissive.Author's Dilemmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11755372831556363260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3403328333335592440.post-58953015779171533022009-07-13T10:35:55.876+03:002009-07-13T10:35:55.876+03:00Rafi -
That's exactly why I put my emphasis on...Rafi -<br />That's exactly why I put my emphasis on conversation. internet or no, anyone today can just walk outside and be exposed to any form of sin. It is only the morals imparted by the parents and the child's inner sense of right and wrong that make all the difference.<br /><br />my reasons for disagreeing with Ilana (unless the child proves he's untrustworthy) is that in many ways, I feel the filtered internet is a good thing. giving a child a sense that he's trusted, explaining things to him and letting him make his own choices are all things that build character and help a child face the true tests of his adult life - which to be honest, internet doesn't really rank among them.<br />additionally, I'm pretty sure he has a laptop, making it kind of difficult to chain him to one place.<br /><br />About him bypassing: yeah, he could also just go to an unfiltered computer, or buy a disc off a friend. or just visit someone who got a video out of a DVDmat and watch it. that's why it's more important to talk about why the filter is there and make sure he appreciates and understands the reasoning behind it. I see the filtered internet as a battlefield, not the war, and i don't want a pyrrhic victory.<br /><br />Further, if you have good communication out there now, he might approach you or just outright say no to those other dangerous offers.<br /> <br />Having said that, the filters aren't EASY to bypass. he would have to go seriously out of his way to find a way around them and possibly learn a lot about computers. i know many kids that wanted to, but never managed to bypass the filters (as a kid, i would be the one that kids begged to help them bypass filters and I would always turn them down). besides the intentional bypass, filters are good to avoid licentious pop ups that are EVERYWHERE which he would suffer from in your supervision or not. [did you notice that even Facebook has ads of scantily clad women? I only know that because i used it once away from home]<br /><br />I'm glad I was helpful, WDK - I'm open for further conversation on this topic, time allowing.<br />Addressing your points:<br />I don't feel that there is much pleasure in repetition. can you think of one thing that if you did it repeatedly over a long term you wouldn't get sick of? I can't, but it might be the limits of my imagination. [I'm not talking about a general category (i.e. reading) but something specific (i.e. reading Harry Potter book 1). a specific sinful act would need to become more and more extreme to retain its enjoyment in the long term. (at least as far as my meager life experience has shown)<br /><br />I agree with you on your second point and I'll refine my position: Its not just the the law itself creates desire. It's the mystique of the forbidden that does. if I made a law that you can't eat rotting meat i doubt anyone would feel the drive to. that same rule about a type of rancid meat that no one has ever encountered until now might have a different effect.<br /><br />Compliment appreciated, Tr8er girl.Author's Dilemmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11755372831556363260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3403328333335592440.post-50486101963688481842009-07-13T09:40:16.105+03:002009-07-13T09:40:16.105+03:00I have a rather old-fashioned approach for kids wh...I have a rather old-fashioned approach for kids who are under 18, put the computer in the lounge or any other <em>public</em> room so that you can discreetly monitor not only what they do but also how much sleep they get. Besides my students told me that most kids know how to get their way round a filter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3403328333335592440.post-33320686719972236962009-07-13T07:59:39.562+03:002009-07-13T07:59:39.562+03:00That makes sense to me as well Rafi - though I thi...That makes sense to me as well Rafi - though I think the presumption of trust is also important as AD suggested. I set his firefox homepage to my website - with my picture on it. Was that too much?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08814307794629407094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3403328333335592440.post-89177249925283605992009-07-12T18:00:06.761+03:002009-07-12T18:00:06.761+03:00The choice is still there to circumvent the filter...The choice is still there to circumvent the filter in the various ways possible or to access the Internet at friends' houses. Putting a filter on your Internet is just a responsible thing to do rather than leaving him in front of the beit zonot with a purse full of money as hazal would have put it. Your son knows what's out there probably better than you do. He will respect you for it and will learn respect for himself.Rafi (S)https://www.blogger.com/profile/18103892755392538611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3403328333335592440.post-87554749810796767572009-07-11T21:48:04.301+03:002009-07-11T21:48:04.301+03:00I have some questions about the psychology of the ...I have some questions about the psychology of the 'forbidden fruits' argument - which I think is ultimately a Christian one (that the law itself creates desire). I also think once one forms an addiction - repetition does not get tiresome... the pleasure may be in the repetition...<br /><br />Having said that, I think your emphasis on tone is just right - and have adopted it in conversations with my son - so thank you!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08814307794629407094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3403328333335592440.post-84283540310178596342009-07-11T02:38:27.026+03:002009-07-11T02:38:27.026+03:00Very nicely put, AD!Very nicely put, AD!Tr8erGirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14277587667715295954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3403328333335592440.post-8833912274692375442009-07-09T19:49:34.141+03:002009-07-09T19:49:34.141+03:00This is a "hot" issue for me and one tha...This is a "hot" issue for me and one that I think will be the first I comment on in your blog.<br /><br />I was one of those kids who grew up with the internet in a less-religious household. obviously, my dad didn't want me surfing to adult sites (I think more he had no idea they were even around back then) but he didn't talk to me about it, nor install a filter.<br /><br />Interestingly, after unwittingly sampling from the seedier side of the net, those evil popup ads began to irk me to the point that i learned how to acquire and install a filter of my own to be free of them.<br /><br />I'm a great believer in what Milton said - i feel that by forcibly denying something exists you are making it more alluring. think about it: why aren't a woman's elbows considered "sexy"? obviously, because its such a common occurrence to see them. there is no rush of forbidden pleasure to gaze upon them.<br /><br />Once one has experienced what the internet has to offer without the magic of its being forbidden, its rather boring and annoying. the people who are "addicted" do it compulsively, like snacking when there are doritos in front of you. they don't derive any real pleasure from it the same way the 100th dorito doesn't taste so amazing.<br /><br />I would install the filter and sit down to discuss it with your son. let him know whats out there, why it exists, and why you installed the filter - if you are frank about it, he'll realize there is nothing so amazingly special about the adult content out there the same way a spam filter doesn't make spam more alluring: it filters out the crap.<br /><br />It's a fact of life that someone living today WILL stumble over adult content: if its a billboard, a person, or the internet. Education and communication make all the difference between getting sucked in and just walking away.Author's Dilemmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11755372831556363260noreply@blogger.com